Mechanical vs Electronic shifting

[Lou Holtman]

I can't disagree with him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> I can't disagree with him:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s

It sounded very sensible.

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 19:47:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33?PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> I can't disagree with him:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s
>
>It sounded very sensible.
>- Frank Krygowski

I'm not so sure and my crystal ball needs recalibration. I would
consider the video to be rather alarmist.

Every time a new technology arrives, the Greek Chorus chants the same
refrain portending inevitable doom and disaster. It's not reliable,
it's too complicated, nobody knows how to fix it, it costs too much,
the old way is better, it breaks without warning, it's not rugged
enough, it will destroy the environment, I didn't ask for anything
new, etc. I've seen it with the automobile automatic transmission,
pocket calculator, electric power tools, transistors, computers,
digital audio, solid state drives, electric vehicles, nuclear power,
carbon fiber, etc. Each new technology starts out with a rough start,
a few spectacular failures, some ill conceived headlines and dire
predictions of doom. The makers and builders then go back to the
drawing board and try again, and again, and again, until something
acceptable emerges. After a few years, the Greek Chorus will be
singing songs of praise for the new technology and the pundits will be
proclaiming that life would not be worthwhile without it.

I don't know if electronic shifting is going to be the next big thing
(like eBikes) or remain a boutique item. Di2 has been around since
2009. If managed badly, like nuclear power, it could eventually
become a marketing failure. I suspect the cost is the main problem
with Di2. If electronic shifting fails to gain widespread acceptance,
it will probably go into hibernation for a few years and then be
resurrected in a different form, which might be more acceptable.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[James]

He asks "Is electronic shifting more reliable?", and answers himself,
"Yes!".

Hmm. I don't have unreliable mechanical shifted gears. How will
electronic shifted gears fix a nonexistent problem?


I've only ridden with a couple of other people who have electronic gear
shifting, and on one of the few rides with them, there was a flat
battery. Yay for electronics reliability!


I wonder how long it will be before someone devises a charging system
for electronic gear shifting that siphons a little energy from a dynamo
in a jockey wheel, for example, or piezoelectric vibration energy
harvesting.


--
JS

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 20:44:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Well... one cannot argue with the video's author but the same argument
is valid for almost anything. Electric cars... your car breaks down in
a remote part of, oh say, Maine,. Can the local mechanic fix it? After
all he is "Hell on wheels" with a diesel marine engine...

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Really, battery life is a non issue and there is no need for a hack to charge that battery while riding. It is what that guy says: power consumption is so low that people forget to check (Di2, can't speak of Sram or Campagnolo) and then get a dead battery. It happened to me once in 10 years and now I configured a datafield for the Di2 battery status on my Garmin. A dead battery is not the end of the world in most cases. You just limp home like with a frayed/broken shifter cable.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 1:26:49 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
> On 21/8/23 12:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> I can't disagree with him:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s
> >
> > It sounded very sensible.
> >
> He asks "Is electronic shifting more reliable?", and answers himself,
> "Yes!".
>
> Hmm. I don't have unreliable mechanical shifted gears. How will
> electronic shifted gears fix a nonexistent problem?

+1, my thoughts exactly

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

But does that really translate into electronic shifting being _more_ reliable? As James mentioned, reliability of mechanical systems would need to be a problem before I would consider electronic systems to be solution for it. I don't have a problem with electronic systems, I just don't see a compelling reason for me to switch over.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 20:44:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Indeed, the guy says it improves shifting and the only problem, other
than cost, is that you might have trouble getting it repaired in East
Podunk. I don't think the "East Podunk" problem will deter many
individuals who are not detered by their cost vs benefit analysis.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 15:26:44 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 21/8/23 12:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33?PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> I can't disagree with him:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s
>>
>> It sounded very sensible.
>>
>
>He asks "Is electronic shifting more reliable?", and answers himself,
>"Yes!".
>
>Hmm. I don't have unreliable mechanical shifted gears. How will
>electronic shifted gears fix a nonexistent problem?
>
>
>I've only ridden with a couple of other people who have electronic gear
>shifting, and on one of the few rides with them, there was a flat
>battery. Yay for electronics reliability!

A few days ago my new bike computer (Garmin Edge 130+) informed me
that the battery for my cadence sensor was low.

When I got home, I changed it out.

I'm not inclined to read owner's manuals so I didn't even know it did
that. So now I don't bother carrying the batteries when I ride, but I
think I'd still carry one if it worked my shifter.

[Roger Meriman]

I occasionally think about electric system for my MTB as designed it has
internal routing though older design which allows water ingress, and as
it’s used it filthy conditions ie I’ll ride though rivers/bogs and what
not!

I have a bodged system ie fully enclosed cable that is zip ties to frame
which works well to be honest, normally lasts at least a year or more
before starts to get sticky or outer gets damaged.

But electronics might well solve some of this, would be yet another thing
to charge occasionally but realistically that’s not a huge problem as the
MTB I use for big rides so will have charged Garmin and what not anyway.

I think probably a wireless would for the MTB make more sense, though
present system works fine to be honest.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

I would not call it reliability but less maintenance. Still I think it is a honest video and people can decide for their own based what is said in the video.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 10:29:17 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

If I had money to burn, I'd probably give electronic shifting a try. I
might even try hydraulic brakes. Currently the shifting and braking on
my catrike is fine, but I admit that wrenching (my wife calls it
fiddling) on my bike is so enjoyable that I sometimes perform
maintenance that isn't really needed. I generally hesitate, however,
to spend money on the bike when it's not needed.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 13:15:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
(chomp)

>Well... one cannot argue with the video's author but the same argument
>is valid for almost anything. Electric cars... your car breaks down in
>a remote part of, oh say, Maine,. Can the local mechanic fix it? After
>all he is "Hell on wheels" with a diesel marine engine...

I was the "local mechanic" for PC's (personal computers) starting in
1984. I knew a little about them, which made me an expert compared to
what some of my competitors knew. I muddled along, leveraging my past
experience and learned by destroying. The nice part is that I was
able to charge desperate customers for my computer education. Looking
back at the experience, it was a circus. Manufacturers were offering
worthless certifications. Tech support was useless. Software
companies were trying to turn everyone into programmers. Documentation
was written by programmers for programmers, not users. Clone hardware
was mostly unreliable junk. Nothing worked perfectly and everything
had bugs. Rebooting several times per hour was typical.

Should electronic shifting ever become the next big thing, I predict
that it will follow the same pattern. People will buy overpriced
hardware and whomever they can to keep it working. Any wrench jockey,
that knows something about electronics, will magically be transformed
into a bicycle electronics wizard, complete with a bag of magic tricks
and cannibalized parts. By then, there will also be Di2 clones, which
offer reduced reliability at a substantially reduced cost. Eventually,
that will become a mass market. That's a rough approximation of how
the eBike sales and service market is going.

Shimano seems to be doing their best to keep the Di2 a high priced
niche product and out of the hands of the GUM (great unwashed masses).
They've equipped their racing teams with Di2:
<https://road.shimano.com/us/stories/10-years-of-innovation>
If their teams appear to be winning, Di2 might become a de facto
standard in pro racing, exactly like disk brakes are now a de facto
standard. At the high prices that Shimano is charging, that high end
market seems to be able to sustain 10 years of research and
improvements. My guess(tm) is that they will continue on the same
path, eventually producing an all electronic bicycle with Shimano
dominated standards based wiring, connectors and data protocols.
Shimano has already done some of that for the Di2 in the eBike market:
<https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/news/introducing-shimano-cues-di2-for-e-bike-platforms-.html>
"For those who would rather focus on the ride or desire a hassle-free
commute..."

[Roger Meriman]

Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:33:20/AM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 4:22:14/AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:26:49/AM UTC+2, James wrote:
>>>> On 21/8/23 12:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33/PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> I can't disagree with him:
>>>>>>

>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&tb1s

Judging by roadies be that club mates or just folks out on the road it’s
noticeable how a number have bikes with shifting not quite right, can hear
the chain rattling in between cogs, or even slipping.

Only thing I’ve heard of with Electronic is folks running out of charge
once. And even so could limp home.

Wouldn’t seem particularly a problem after all with mechanical you might
replace cable but that’s largely it, shifters last for years if not
decades.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Realistically I’m not sure my bike is compatible! As MTB have and are
evolving fast. And the hack works fine!

I hated cable disks but your usage sounds more reasonable for them. And as
your handy and enjoy it adjusting the pads isn’t much of chore.

I’d need to do so after a wet ride which parking performance and durability
to one side just got tedious!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 15:26:44 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21/8/23 12:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:34:33?PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> I can't disagree with him:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhXc1Cr3ps&t=621s
>>>
>>> It sounded very sensible.
>>>
>>
>> He asks "Is electronic shifting more reliable?", and answers himself,
>> "Yes!".
>>
>> Hmm. I don't have unreliable mechanical shifted gears. How will
>> electronic shifted gears fix a nonexistent problem?
>>
>>
>> I've only ridden with a couple of other people who have electronic gear
>> shifting, and on one of the few rides with them, there was a flat
>> battery. Yay for electronics reliability!
>
> A few days ago my new bike computer (Garmin Edge 130+) informed me
> that the battery for my cadence sensor was low.
>
> When I got home, I changed it out.
>
> I'm not inclined to read owner's manuals so I didn't even know it did
> that. So now I don't bother carrying the batteries when I ride, but I
> think I'd still carry one if it worked my shifter.

The Shimano and I’m sure others you can check the level on the device ie
shifter or derailleur or using the app, and I’d assume the Garmin could
have a data field if one wanted.

Doesn’t sound like something that needs a spare battery more like a
reminder every few months to check! After all I don’t have the better level
on my Garmin as even with navigation and not being charged I’ve only got
down to 60% at most.

>
>> I wonder how long it will be before someone devises a charging system
>> for electronic gear shifting that siphons a little energy from a dynamo
>> in a jockey wheel, for example, or piezoelectric vibration energy
>> harvesting.
>
>

Some of the newer Garmin’s will recover some power from sun, which is cool
but personally not needed I only ride to what 7/8hrs longest?

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 12:16:56 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

I use lots of electronics on my rides. I have the Garmin computer and
speed and cadence sensors. My watch provides my heart rate. I have the
bone conduction headset for music, which bluetooths from my cell
phone, which I can also use for GPS routing, if I need it.

I know that I could ride without any of that, but why would I?

[Roger Meriman]

I’m not generally performance at least metrics concerned, though I do like
various awkward off road climbs it’s less the time more if it can be
cleared or not.

I will occasionally use Strava live segments though rarely, and I like the
connected features most of my technology is the Garmin plus the phone
though my light have some ie auto mode and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

My 11 and 12 speed manuals shifting needs continuous readjusting. The 12 less than the 11 but still some. Di2 properly installed needs none. As Lou points out, the battery life isn't a problem and unless you have some sort of accident, there are no problems with the components which are FAR more carefully designed for reliability than the manual groups.

I don't like the idea of plugging a bike in but using a special purpose bike is using a special purpose bike. Until and unless you've actually used an electronic shifting group you should not talk about it as if your opinion had validity. Flunky's opinion barely qualifies since his early 10 speed Di2 group was really experimental. None of the later groups was anything like it. But even he claims that he hasn't had a problem with his at all.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 09:34:53 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>I use lots of electronics on my rides. I have the Garmin computer and
>speed and cadence sensors. My watch provides my heart rate. I have the
>bone conduction headset for music, which bluetooths from my cell
>phone, which I can also use for GPS routing, if I need it.
>
>I know that I could ride without any of that, but why would I?

Your electronics might be a health issue if you were electrosensitive:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity>
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32289567/>
<https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/29/electrosensitivity-is-technology-killing-us>
Anything that transmits RF or produces an electromagnetic field is
considered bad for their health.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 08:46:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 09:34:53 -0400, Catrike Rider
><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>I use lots of electronics on my rides. I have the Garmin computer and
>>speed and cadence sensors. My watch provides my heart rate. I have the
>>bone conduction headset for music, which bluetooths from my cell
>>phone, which I can also use for GPS routing, if I need it.
>>
>>I know that I could ride without any of that, but why would I?
>
>Your electronics might be a health issue if you were electrosensitive:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity>
><https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32289567/>
><https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/29/electrosensitivity-is-technology-killing-us>
>Anything that transmits RF or produces an electromagnetic field is
>considered bad for their health.

I must not have that affliction. I spend 5 years working in electric
power plants and all it damaged was my ears....

[Frank Krygowski]

That depends on the technology. There have been countless technological
dead ends, even in the mechanical realm of bicycling. I doubt anyone
here is using Octalink bottom brackets, under-the-chainstay center pull
brakes, Front Freewheeling, Zertz, Biopace chainrings, etc.

And regarding electronics, I wasn't tempted to buy an Apple Newton, nor
a Google Glass. Those decisions worked out OK for me.

But regarding e-shifting: I've come across only one person who claimed
his derailleurs needed constant adjusting. (Um... he posts here
frequently about his many problems.) On the many bikes in our household,
only the tandem front shifting seems to need a tweak even once or twice
per year. Mechanical shift reliability is extremely high.

And back in the days when I drove sag for our club's annual invitational
century, I did on-road fixes for a few derailleurs that had been bent in
crashes, broke cables or swallowed a stick. In each case the rider was
able to complete the ride. I don't know if that would be possible with
e-shifters. (Do event sag drivers carry battery chargers these days?)

I know I'm unusual in wanting to be able to repair things on my own
using what I carry on my bike. That's because I've done lots of riding
very far from home. I don't like incomprehensible black boxes to be
required for my bike to function. Obviously, others' MMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/21/2023 4:22 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> Really, battery life is a non issue and there is no need for a hack to charge that battery while riding. It is what that guy says: power consumption is so low that people forget to check (Di2, can't speak of Sram or Campagnolo) and then get a dead battery. It happened to me once in 10 years and now I configured a datafield for the Di2 battery status on my Garmin. A dead battery is not the end of the world in most cases. You just limp home like with a frayed/broken shifter cable.

Out of curiosity: If a person were to do a really extended tour in
really remote country, is it feasible to carry some sort of auxiliary
battery for recharging? Something like a cell phone power bank?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

For e-Tap, the battery unit snaps in, no tools, and spares
are cheap, easy to carry.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PL-AUEHb1yI/VuRUyDo5IoI/AAAAAAAAAg4/OrBJm4A75OcKZ5ZSYtqFqx_mvvALqY30w/s320/etapbattery.jpg

[Lou Holtman]

I don’t know but I think so via the normal charger that plugs in an USB A port of the battery pack. I would carry a spare Di2 battery. They are smaller and lighter than a powerbank and plug and play. A fully loaded Di2 battery last a couple of months. There are the cost of coarse.

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/Di2-BT-DN110-Battery-for-Internal-Mount-p50592/

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

That was from all of the bosses shouting at the workers to get off of their asses.

[Tom Kunich]

Di2 batteries are fairly cheap and hold a charge very well. So all it takes is an Allan Head wrench to pull the seat post, change out the battery and replace the seatpost and set it at the proper height. You can easily mark the seatpost.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, most of my time in the power plants was at a sit down job...
Of course, it was between the two schreaking steam turbines I was in
control of.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Gee, just imagine if you knew what the fuck you were doing...

> Di2 properly installed needs none. As Lou points out, the battery life isn't a problem and unless you have some sort of accident, there are no problems with the components which are FAR more carefully designed for reliability than the manual groups.
>
> I don't like the idea of plugging a bike in but using a special purpose bike is using a special purpose bike. Until and unless you've actually used an electronic shifting group you should not talk about it as if your opinion had validity. Flunky's opinion barely qualifies since his early 10 speed Di2 group was really experimental.

You really enjoy waving your willful stupidity around for all to see.

> None of the later groups was anything like it. But even he claims that he hasn't had a problem with his at all.

Hard to have a problem with something I've never used, dipshit.

Tommy waving proudly from his willful stupidity train.

[Tom Kunich]

You prove again and again that you're a liar. You argued here in several strings that you had one of the Di2 10 speed groups and that it worked just fine. Now you show us that you were lying all the time. I wish I could say that was a surprise but it isn't. Most of the stuff you publish here rings so untrue that you demonstrate that you don't know anything you're talking about. Your bullshit about being an electronics engineer and then making some of the wildest claims that no real engineer would.

Early on I was willing to give you the benefit of a doubt, but you soon made sure that I had no doubts.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tom, I have _never_ claimed I ever owned or even road a bike with Di2 10 speed. This is a complete fabrication on your part. If you still think I ever did, feel free to post the link.

> I wish I could say that was a surprise but it isn't. Most of the stuff you publish here rings so untrue that you demonstrate that you don't know anything you're talking about.

Tom, the only one lying here is you, with this stupid claim about ten speed Di2 And you still have yet to prove anything I've ever written is wrong. I've admitted the mistake in the few exceptions where I have been wrong.

> Your bullshit about being an electronics engineer and then making some of the wildest claims that no real engineer would.

care to give an example? I have plenty wild claims you've made that no real engineer would ever make.

> Early on I was willing to give you the benefit of a doubt, but you soon made sure that I had no doubts.

We have no doubt that you're a fucking idiot.

[James]

On 22/8/23 00:48, Tom Kunich wrote:

> My 11 and 12 speed manuals shifting needs continuous readjusting.

I have 10 and 11 speed. The 11 speed is on my gravel bike. It just
works. There's no "continuous readjusting" necessary. You must be
doing something wrong.

--
JS

[James]

If a person was touring, why not use a dynamo hub and keep it and the
phone charged?

I follow an instagram account of a fellow who charged his electronic
gears battery from a dynamo. Then he found that the battery had died
without him noticing, and so he powered the gear shifting system from
the dynamo and through a voltage regulator, with no battery at all.

With an energy harvesting system, the battery could be smaller and
lighter, or replaced with a super or ultra capacitor.

These are ways to improve a system with shortcomings. Batteries don't
last forever. They don't like shock and vibration, or heat and cold.

I suppose the "Watt Weenies" will cry that they have to produce an extra
watt on a flat road, or some nonsense.

--
JS

[Roger Meriman]

Seems overkill unless your going somewhere so remote that you’re going to
be without access to electricity for weeks on end?

A battery pack due to its capacity and output ie can produced a lot more
than just 3watts can charge up a Di2 battery which is only 500mAh which
even a small battery pack would be able to charge what 10 times? And charge
a phone maybe once, though a more normal pack in the 20,000/30,000mAh range
which is about the same size as a phone just all battery, would charge up a
phone multiple times, about a week give or take assuming one charge per
day. And assuming low battery by end of day.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Say it ain't so!!!!

>
> --
> JS

[Tom Kunich]

James, perhaps you don't do a lot of climbing and shifting of gears. My 11 speeds work fine when I stay on the flats and shift minimally. But continuous shifting with hard climbing soon puts the 11 out of whack. And the 12 speed will need at least one readjustment before it achieves stability. Of course that world's greatest engineer Krygowski will tell you that the inner cables do not bed themselves in. But then he has invented practically anything to achieve his goal of being some sort of authority about things he does not own, has never used and has no intentions of ever using.

[Tom Kunich]

James, this sounds highly unlikely. There are no voltage controls on the the dynamos I've seen and while charging a battery CAN control the voltage in a Di2 system to a certain extent, running no battery would be lethal to the Di2 controls.

Now perhaps there are newer dynamos that I am unaware of that do have voltage regulators built into them but I find that also doubtful because the nature of a dynamo hub is that it has such a large variation on speed and hence output, that regulation would be difficult without expense regulators.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/22/2023 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:53:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>> On 22/8/23 00:48, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>> My 11 and 12 speed manuals shifting needs continuous readjusting.
>> I have 10 and 11 speed. The 11 speed is on my gravel bike. It just
>> works. There's no "continuous readjusting" necessary. You must be
>> doing something wrong.
>
> James, perhaps you don't do a lot of climbing and shifting of gears. My 11 speeds work fine when I stay on the flats and shift minimally. But continuous shifting with hard climbing soon puts the 11 out of whack. And the 12 speed will need at least one readjustment before it achieves stability. Of course that world's greatest engineer Krygowski will tell you that the inner cables do not bed themselves in.

Of course they bed in. After a perfectly new installation, that process
is typically finished after one long ride.

Tom, you're talking about needing _more_ adjustments, and you've
complained about needing frequent adjustments.

You _must_ be doing something wrong with your shifter installations and
adjustments. Much like with your handlebar installations, your seatpost
installations, your Di2 wiring, and so much else.

Seriously, you need to come to terms with the fact that you have many,
many problems that the rest of us do not have.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, tell us how much experience you have with 11 and 12 speed Campy Record groups? Tell us everything you actually know about them.

[Frank Krygowski]

James lives in Australia, IIRC. I imagine going without electricity on a
bike tour is not impossible there. The same can happen here in North
America on certain routes. The Pacific Crest trail is very remote. So
are many roads in the northern Great Plains.

Those shouldn't be a problem if a Di2 battery lasts months. But if the
electronic poltergeists do manage to attack the system mid-tour,
problems could be serious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh geez. Battery chargers powered by hub dynos have been around for
many, many years. I've even seen plans on the internet for building
one's own. Tom, try researching before you post.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Nice end run, Tom! It doesn't change the fact that you have FAR more
problems than anyone here (or anyone I've ever met!) with bike
components, their installation and their adjustment.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 12:27:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/22/2023 6:32 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> James <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 22/8/23 04:48, Lou Holtman wrote:

...and yet people buy cars rthat must be plugged in every 250 miles...

[Roger Meriman]

Most of Australia is in the towns and what not around the coast which is
quite civilised, and electricity is unlikely to be a problem, clearly are
areas that you’d need to be self sufficient though I’d suggest that a)
that’s outliers b) charge of your di2 would be least of your logistical
concerns.

>
> Those shouldn't be a problem if a Di2 battery lasts months. But if the
> electronic poltergeists do manage to attack the system mid-tour,
> problems could be serious.
>

That’s not what folks who own such systems say, namely that it just works
hence forgetting to charge it.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

For most Australians probably fine most live in the cities very few live
out in farms and so on. They aren’t Crocodile Dundee for most part more
city slickers.

Beautiful place though.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed the only caveat is the relative low power though for Di2 that hardly
matters as it’s a low power system anyway.

I’ve seen folks charge or top up lights (battery powered) GPS units and
phones and so on.

Though dynamos seem to be less prevalent at least on judging by the
adventurers type stuff I watch.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 19:56:10 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 8/22/2023 11:09 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:04:37?PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>>>> On 22/8/23 04:48, Lou Holtman wrote:

I never understood the bicycle dynamo thing. They don't work when you
stop, so you need a battery to store the charge.. so why not just
have the battery and charge it up before you leave home.

[AMuzi]

People have different criteria and weigh those factors
differently. Two of my three present bicycles have a dynamo
lamp (one hub, one tire drive).

A good argument can be made either way, and people do, but
at the end it's taste.

[Tom Kunich]

Can you suggest why you would want to use and electric group on a touring bike? 105 manual isn't good enough for you?

[Tom Kunich]

Show us more of your mental deficiencies - you say that I don't know what I'm doing but you have probably never even seen a Dura Ace Di2 group. To you the mere suggestion that you have to at least have some experience with something to comment about it is foreign and an "end run". So again, rather than do anything you can to change the subject, what experience have you had with 11 and 12 speed groups?

[Tom Kunich]

On the News this morning a woman said how wonderful her new electric car is. "It's so quiet and it drives right by gas stations", Now if she bought a new Tesla, yes for awhile she can drive right by gas stations because she gets free charging for awhile from Tesla. But if she bought anything else, the electricity she is using is more expensive than gas in a state with the highest gas prices in the nation.

[Tom Kunich]

Dynamo hubs for lights aren't a terribly bad idea but you rapidly leanrd that to get enough light you have to pedal pretty hard.

[AMuzi]

Why? For any reason or for no reason.
E-Tap touring bike:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/gun23c.jpg

[Lou Holtman]

Not my experience. Try a modern quality dyno hub.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Using an electric group because you want to is not because you need to. There is little advantage of an electric group to start with other than you don't need to adjust them. Double Tap in particular isn't a good idea because most of the batteries aren't rechargeable.

[Tom Kunich]

My experience with them was quite some years ago. They were fantastically better than the rim generator but if you stopped pedaling the bike stop very shortly if the lights were on.

[Roger Meriman]

Some folks do like them, arguably it’s rather hamstrung by German light
regulation ie cut off beam, and the amount of power the hub will produce.
See some are being used with E bikes which can give the lamp a lot more
power ie jump from 3 to 20 or so watts.

But essentially some folks like them and as ever with technology it’s also
how folks use them and personal preferences.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

The ones I see seem to be producing reasonable amount of light even at
fairly modest speeds, do have that annoying flicker at low speeds.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Simply not correct, once the set up should remain so until cable needs
replacement.

Shifting under load I’ve heard of folks with mechanical lack of sympathy
snap chains and what not but to loose shifting, only thing hills will do is
highlight if it’s not set up properly in the first place.

Ie start to get rattle between cogs and so on, young fast roadie passed me
with similar, though he blew up shortly after, i suspect that pride meant
he felt he should be faster than the hairy Gravel rider!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

E-tap battery packs are indeed rechargeable.
Snap in with fingers, light, cheap.

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/sram-etap-charger-1_0.jpg?itok=TfkMzB4k

[Tom Kunich]

My experience is that they didn't produce enough light to see the road, though enough for cars to see you.

[Tom Kunich]

It is my understanding that that is the rear derailleur battery. I was told that the SRAM E-Tap levers used replaceable coin cells. And the front derailleur used another type of battery. E-Tap uses no wiring at all while Campy and Di2 use some wires but the levers are wireless.

[John B.]

But, perhaps more to the point, do people on bicycles go blundering
around after dark? Yes, some get up early and get started about "sun
up" in the morning or get caught out and get home after dark, but I've
never been driving home from the night shift and encountered bicycles.

So, really, does Joe, average cyclist, need some sort of super duper
light system or is a simple battery powered light "good enough"?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/22/2023 4:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> On the News this morning a woman said how wonderful her new electric car is. "It's so quiet and it drives right by gas stations", Now if she bought a new Tesla, yes for awhile she can drive right by gas stations because she gets free charging for awhile from Tesla. But if she bought anything else, the electricity she is using is more expensive than gas in a state with the highest gas prices in the nation.

Such ignorant bullshit. We drove 100 miles today with the tandem on the
roof. Despite that serious aero penalty, the car averaged 3.2 mile per
kW-hr for the round trip.

I'll let Tom work out the cost per mile.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/22/2023 3:45 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> James lives in Australia, IIRC. I imagine going without electricity on a
>> bike tour is not impossible there. The same can happen here in North
>> America on certain routes. The Pacific Crest trail is very remote. So
>> are many roads in the northern Great Plains.
>
> Most of Australia is in the towns and what not around the coast which is
> quite civilised, and electricity is unlikely to be a problem, clearly are
> areas that you’d need to be self sufficient though I’d suggest that a)
> that’s outliers b) charge of your di2 would be least of your logistical
> concerns.

I agree it wouldn't be a major problem. But we (until recently) were
Warm Showers hosts, and we've been visited by quite a few cyclists. One
couple sent us email reports of their trips long after they stayed here.
They described their Australian travels as very remote indeed. Of
course, I suppose it varies with one's choice of route.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I wouldn't want to. I'm surprised you don't know that. How could you forget?

Never mind - that was a silly question. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Even that isn't necessary. Our dinner ride today took longer than
expected. Our ride back from the restaurant was mostly after sunset and
well shaded by trees. Our tandem has an old-style bottle dynamo driving
a Busch & Mueller LED headlight. The drag is minimal, despite what Tom
says. The illumination is all I need.

The beauty of the system is it's permanently installed and always ready.
I can't imagine having separate batteries, carefully charged, to have
headlights on my car or motorcycle. I don't like that idea for my bikes
either.

Those whose bike use is very limited (only for "training" or recreation,
only while wearing the proper clothing, only on special routes, never
for anything practical) would probably get very little value from a dyno
system. Those who use a bike as more than a toy find dynos to be valuable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/22/2023 4:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> My experience with them was quite some years ago. They were fantastically better than the rim generator but if you stopped pedaling the bike stop very shortly if the lights were on.

That sentence structure is seriously garbled. But:

Almost all the headlights I now use have a "standlight" function built
in. A capacitor charges as soon as you begin moving. If you stop, the
light stays on at slightly reduced brightness for several minutes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Which brands have you used?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

I wouldn't trust him with anything that involves numbers.

This is not quite what you wanted, but close enough:
<https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/>

Comparing Tom's former 2012 Taurus X with Frank's 2022 Kia Niro EV:
Taurus X:
Local gas: $5.25/gallon (regular, Calif average)
Estimated MPG: 20 mpg (EPA estimate)
Kia Niro EV
Miles/kWh: 3.25 miles/kWh (from Frank)
Utility power: $0.17/kWh (Calif residential average).

The range for 1 gallon of gasoline is 20 miles while the EV will do
100 miles.

For the price of 1 gallon of gasoline, the EV can drive an additional
80 miles.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 21:35:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Don't you need to factor in the cost of the two vehicles? After the
Web has it that the EV costs 5.25 times the value of the Ford?

You calc's show that the EV can travel ~100 miles while the ICV can
travels 20 or only 5 times (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 06:08:08 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I bought some front and rear battery lights for the Catrike when I was
riding down in the keys. They're in my spare parts bin now, and the
OEM reflectors were removed before my first ride. I like to go
walking in the dark, but I have no reason to ride the bike at night.

[Roger Meriman]

I’d still suggest food water in the more remote areas would be more
pressing concern than a battery particularly as long lasting as that. Ie
same places you get water probably can get power ie motels and what not.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

I have to wonder what kind of people would invite strangers to spend a
night in their home, and what kind of people would would want to spend
a night in some stranger's home. I've never been that desperate for
social contact, but then some people only define themselves by others'
opinions of them.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 23:23:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/22/2023 4:34 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Some do, some don't... I don't see dynos as valuable since I only use
my bike is a toy.


--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to
the pedals. Nowdays, I always truck my bike to where I start my
ride and don't use the bike for transportation, only for pleasure.
I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
accomplishments.

[AMuzi]

Your OH rate seems to be about 16 cents, so about half a
dollar roughly. Compare to a vintage V8 at 19mpg and $3.65
in WI, or about $19.20 roughly.


https://www.aes-ohio.com/sites/default/files/2023-07/Rate%20141-s%20-%20with%20Net%20Metering.pdf

https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=WI

[AMuzi]

I drew the same conclusion but other riders (most, actually)
see the problem differently.

[AMuzi]

I made an error. Your electric trip was about $5 not 50 cents.

[Roger Meriman]

I’d agree though I personally don’t think Dynamo systems bring much
advantages, but even the lowest powered blinkies you can see the road, yes
out of town lights that feel okay can feel a touch inadequate!

But certainly even fairly modest dynamos lamps kick out enough to see the
road. I occasionally see them in the parks, london has large unlit parks so
you need lights to see by, or suffer the fate of my colleague who rode into
to. Red Deer! Which he described as riding into a wall that someone has
laid a wet smelly rug to!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/22/2023 4:34 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:31:44 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>> Dynamo hubs for lights aren't a terribly bad idea but you rapidly
>>> leanrd that to get enough light you have to pedal pretty hard.
>>
>> Not my experience. Try a modern quality dyno hub.
>
> Even that isn't necessary. Our dinner ride today took longer than
> expected. Our ride back from the restaurant was mostly after sunset and
> well shaded by trees. Our tandem has an old-style bottle dynamo driving
> a Busch & Mueller LED headlight. The drag is minimal, despite what Tom
> says. The illumination is all I need.
>
> The beauty of the system is it's permanently installed and always ready.
> I can't imagine having separate batteries, carefully charged, to have
> headlights on my car or motorcycle. I don't like that idea for my bikes
> either.
>

My bikes bar the MTB are I fit the lights to as I leave, I charge the
lights up as and when, as they have long battery life’s and the front (all
exposure lights) have a traffic light gauge and run time displayed.

It’s hardly a problem and will kick out a lot more power should I wish them
to, and 2/3 lights have a high and low beam shape ie lower power flatter
beam and rounder high beam for seeing.

> Those whose bike use is very limited (only for "training" or recreation,
> only while wearing the proper clothing, only on special routes, never
> for anything practical) would probably get very little value from a dyno
> system. Those who use a bike as more than a toy find dynos to be valuable.
>

Even in Europe dynamos seem to be on the wain, and probably sticking to the
German specifications as well.

Noting that lamps powered by e-bikes which are hugely popular. Be that
owned or the various hire bikes.

Dynamos are much more eclectic choice hence you don’t see them in bricks
and mortar places or even online but specific shops selling dynamo systems
generally.

Much more of toy as you quote really it’s a want not a need as such.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Here the cost of electricity is 41 cents per KW/h. However, taking a trip you would want to use fast charge stations which take about ah hour to charge from near empty to 80% in an hour. They cost 30 cents a minute or so hence an 80% charge could be (using the Tesla as the standard) 80 KW/h's for $36. This is cheaper compared to the national average gas fill-up of $39 but the cost of the charge is heavily subsidized from your tax money.

Of course Frank is willing to ignore that so that he can again show his intellectual superiority Frank also wants us to believe that electric cars get maximum mileage capable from the electric car in traffic when that is in fact the worst case and where, like gas cars, they get the least mileage. My wife's rental Toyota in her mostly in-city driving is getting 60 mpg. And new high mileage cars are all better.

Now Frank, you're the one who thinks of himself as an engineer. Why couldn't you work this simple problem out?

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, surely you don't believe that was directed to a person that has a 6 speed freewheel and bar end friction shifters? I would be willing to bet that your frameset alone weighs more than my complete bike - my heaviest bike it my Land Shark at 24 lbs on the road.

[Tom Kunich]

Krygowski's "touring" bike is built for flat ground so although there is absolutely no advantage to electronic shifting, There would be so little shifting that the battery life would be a lot more than Lou's even though most of Lou's riding is also on flat ground.

Remember, every single bit of Krygowski's knowledge of electronic shifting systems is entirely theoretical without any actual practical knowledge at all. This is the same with his comments on 11 and 12 speed manual groups. Everything from Frank on anything other than bar end friction shifters is nothing more than noise he feels compelled to make.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 14:24:56 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 8/22/2023 6:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:03:41?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The ones I see seem to be producing reasonable amount of light even at
>>>> fairly modest speeds, do have that annoying flicker at low speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> My experience is that they didn't produce enough light to see the road,
>>> though enough for cars to see you.
>>
>> Which brands have you used?
>>
>I’d agree though I personally don’t think Dynamo systems bring much
>advantages, but even the lowest powered blinkies you can see the road, yes
>out of town lights that feel okay can feel a touch inadequate!
>
>But certainly even fairly modest dynamos lamps kick out enough to see the
>road. I occasionally see them in the parks, london has large unlit parks so
>you need lights to see by, or suffer the fate of my colleague who rode into
>to. Red Deer! Which he described as riding into a wall that someone has
>laid a wet smelly rug to!
>
>Roger Merriman

When I went looking for bike lights for my first bicycling trip to Key
west, the LBS salesperson actually began talking about a dynamo. He
stopped when I rolled my eyes at him. That was, by the way, before the
Catrike, for which a dynamo wouldn't work.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/23/2023 11:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Krygowski's "touring" bike is built for flat ground ...

Bullshit. Like almost all touring bikes, it came with very wide range
gears. It's crossed the Appalachians and the Rockies.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

I am much happier with a hub dynamo and LED lights than I was with
batteries that had to be charged, and that went flat after an hour or
so. But I wouldn't waste my time trying to convert anyone.

[Radey Shouman]

In my experience brightness is significantly reduced, although that's
not a big problem since one is not moving. The charge on the "super
capacitor" remains for days at least. Remarkable technology --
capacitance that is measured in Farads, not nF or pF.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/23/2023 8:06 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 23:13:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>

>> ... we (until recently) were
>> Warm Showers hosts, and we've been visited by quite a few cyclists...

>
>
> I have to wonder what kind of people would invite strangers to spend a
> night in their home, and what kind of people would would want to spend
> a night in some stranger's home.

Who are Warm Showers hosts? People who enjoy meeting people, who wish to
help others, who enjoy and support bicycle touring.

https://www.warmshowers.org/

We've really enjoyed (almost) every one of our Warm Showers guests. And
we were very pleased with the help and support we got from other Warm
Showers hosts on our various bike tours.

Those who are pathologically afraid of other people miss a lot in life,
despite their macho pretenses.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

almost anything humans can imagine can be done

https://www.utahtrikes.com/PartUsedOnTrikes-11616076.html

Volition is a different subject.

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course. And I should have modified my final sentence above. There are
many people who use their bikes very practically, but don't use dynos.

I'm sure the reasons vary, with some reasons being correct, others
mistaken. Tom's claim about lots of drag has been thoroughly proven
false, but persists.

But it's true that bike dynamos are hard to find in America (well,
unless you happen to have internet access ...) and any type of dyno
involves more complicated installation than simply clipping a battery
light onto handlebars.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 11:43:01 -0400, Radey Shouman
<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> On 8/22/2023 10:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/22/2023 4:34 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:31:44?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dynamo hubs for lights aren't a terribly bad idea but you rapidly
>>>>> leanrd that to get enough light you have to pedal pretty hard.
>>>>
>>>> Not my experience. Try a modern quality  dyno hub.
>>> Even that isn't necessary. Our dinner ride today took longer
>>> than expected. Our ride back from the restaurant was mostly after
>>> sunset and well shaded by trees. Our tandem has an old-style bottle
>>> dynamo driving a Busch & Mueller LED headlight. The drag is minimal,
>>> despite what Tom says. The illumination is all I need.
>>> The beauty of the system is it's permanently installed and
>>> always ready. I can't imagine having separate batteries, carefully
>>> charged, to have headlights on my car or motorcycle. I don't like
>>> that idea for my bikes either.
>>> Those whose bike use is very limited (only for "training" or
>>> recreation, only while wearing the proper clothing, only on special
>>> routes, never for anything practical) would probably get very little
>>> value from a dyno system. Those who use a bike as more than a toy
>>> find dynos to be valuable.
>>>
>>
>> I drew the same conclusion but other riders (most, actually) see the
>> problem differently.
>
>I am much happier with a hub dynamo and LED lights than I was with
>batteries that had to be charged, and that went flat after an hour or
>so. But I wouldn't waste my time trying to convert anyone.

At least not on internet forums where nobody have ever been converted
about anything.

[Catrike Rider]

On the other hand, batteries are cheap, are very easy to carry and
available almost everywhere... as are the lights that use them.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 14:22:24 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 21:35:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>This is not quite what you wanted, but close enough:
>><https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/>
>>
>>Comparing Tom's former 2012 Taurus X with Frank's 2022 Kia Niro EV:
>>Taurus X:
>> Local gas: $5.25/gallon (regular, Calif average)
>> Estimated MPG: 20 mpg (EPA estimate)
>>Kia Niro EV
>> Miles/kWh: 3.25 miles/kWh (from Frank)
>> Utility power: $0.17/kWh (Calif residential average).
>>
>>The range for 1 gallon of gasoline is 20 miles while the EV will do
>>100 miles.
>>
>>For the price of 1 gallon of gasoline, the EV can drive an additional
>>80 miles.

>Don't you need to factor in the cost of the two vehicles? After the
>Web has it that the EV costs 5.25 times the value of the Ford?

True, however the original question was about the cost of operation,
not the cost of ownership. If I wanted to includes all the factors
involved in ownership, it would be a far more complexicated
calculatation. Besides original cost, the calculator would need to
include loan financing, depreciation, estimated insurance rates, state
taxes, various rebates, estimated maintenance, dealer incentives (such
as Tesla 1 year free charging), typical options, power utility rate
plans, warranty extensions, alternative solar charging savings, AAA
towing charges and whatever else I've forgotten to include. I could
do all that, but I'm lazy. I know a few people who have created
spreadsheets and compared such costs over various projected vehicle
life's. The one's I've seen typically show that an EV is more
expensive for the first 5 years. After 5 years, the EV is cheaper.
I'll ask and see what I can find online, but I doubt I'll find
anything that compares the Kia Niro EV and Taurus X. Here's a crude
version of total cost of ownership:
<https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/total-cost-of-ownership/>

>You calc's show that the EV can travel ~100 miles while the ICV can
>travels 20 or only 5 times (:-)

The magic translation between gasoline and electric is neatly packages
at MPGe (miles per gallon equivalent).
"What Is MPGe?"
<https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/what-is-mpge/#mpge-calculated>
The typical EV gets over 100 MPGe which means it takes 33.7 kWh to
travel 100 miles. Or, 33.7 kWh of electricity = 1 gallon of gas.

According to FuelEconomy.gov, the Frank's 2022 Kia Niro EV is 112 MPGe
and Tom's 2012 Taurus X is 20 MPG. Therefore, the EV will go:
112 / 20 = 22.4 time farther. Comparison:
<https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44445&id=31783>
Again, this is cost of operation, not cost of ownership.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 11:51:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/23/2023 8:06 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 23:13:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> ... we (until recently) were
>>> Warm Showers hosts, and we've been visited by quite a few cyclists...
>>
>>
>> I have to wonder what kind of people would invite strangers to spend a
>> night in their home, and what kind of people would would want to spend
>> a night in some stranger's home.
>
>Who are Warm Showers hosts? People who enjoy meeting people, who wish to
>help others, who enjoy and support bicycle touring.
>
>https://www.warmshowers.org/

<LOL> advertising garbage..

>We've really enjoyed (almost) every one of our Warm Showers guests. And
>we were very pleased with the help and support we got from other Warm
>Showers hosts on our various bike tours.

Yeah, I understand that some people need a lot social interactions to
assist them in building up their poor self image. Others are quite
happy with their own self evaluation, subjective, though it may be.

>Those who are pathologically afraid of other people miss a lot in life,
>despite their macho pretenses.

"Pathologically afraid of other people" is your insignificant subject
evaluation, of course, as are, in my opinion, all your "evaluations."
So is "miss[ing] a lot in life."

There are, of course, people who really are afraid of other people.
THose people would most likely not have given speeches, made
presentations, and become entertainers, in front of groups of "other
people."

I pity people who are afraid of being alone.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 08:02:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Here the cost of electricity is 41 cents per KW/h.

Close. Time of Use plans offer some savings:
<https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page>

EV2-A rates are:
Off-peak (12am to 3pm) rates are $0.27/kWh.
Peak rates (3pm to 12am) rates are $0.44 to $0.58/kWh.

EV-B rates vary from $0.28 to $0.64/kWh depending on season and time
of day.

I screwed up by using $0.17/kWh for utility power. It should have
been about $0.35/kWh (my estimate based on mostly off peak charging).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 10:02:04 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I made a mistake by using an old rate chart. Utility power should be
about $0.35/kWh (my estimate) for mostly off peak charging.

>>>Comparing Tom's former 2012 Taurus X with Frank's 2022 Kia Niro EV:
>>>Taurus X:
>>> Local gas: $5.25/gallon (regular, Calif average)
>>> Estimated MPG: 20 mpg (EPA estimate)
>>>Kia Niro EV
>>> Miles/kWh: 3.25 miles/kWh (from Frank)
>>> Utility power: $0.17/kWh (Calif residential average).
>>>
>>>The range for 1 gallon of gasoline is 20 miles while the EV will do
>>>100 miles.
>>>
>>>For the price of 1 gallon of gasoline, the EV can drive an additional
>>>80 miles.

Recalculating:

<https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/>

Comparing Tom's former 2012 Taurus X with Frank's 2022 Kia Niro EV:
Taurus X:
Local gas: $5.25/gallon (regular, Calif average)
Estimated MPG: 20 mpg (EPA estimate)
Kia Niro EV
Miles/kWh: 3.25 miles/kWh (from Frank)

Utility power: $0.35/kWh (Calif residential average).

The range for 1 gallon of gasoline is 20 miles while the EV will do

49 miles.

For the price of 1 gallon of gasoline, the EV can drive an additional

29 miles.

[Roger Meriman]

Recumbent are probably the target market for dynamos, in terms of folks who
buy them. So I can see why they might have attempted to up sell as they
say!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

Wow.... I had no idea... I admit that I don't go looking for things
I don't want and have no use for, but I've known people who would jump
on that, and might already have.

I would ebay that thing in it's unopened box, if it were given to me.
My Catrike does not pull to either side, and I intend to keep it that
way.

There is, on one of the bike trails I sometimes ride, a regular trike
cult, mostly Catrikes. There are two Catrike dealers on that trail,
and they, and the trike riders, are full of unsolicited advice not
unlike what I sometimes witness here on RBT.

When I ride there, I am sometimes confronted by one or more of the
"cult" members, explaining that I "really" should wear a helmet and
diplay a flag. Sometimes they invite me to join their rides. I
generally get clear of them before they have an opportunity to accuse
me of being afraid of people.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 12:00:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/23/2023 9:10 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 8/22/2023 10:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/22/2023 4:34 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:31:44?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dynamo hubs for lights aren't a terribly bad idea but you rapidly
>>>>> leanrd that to get enough light you have to pedal pretty hard.
>>>>
>>>> Not my experience. Try a modern quality  dyno hub.
>>>
>>> Even that isn't necessary. Our dinner ride today took longer than
>>> expected. Our ride back from the restaurant was mostly after sunset
>>> and well shaded by trees. Our tandem has an old-style bottle dynamo
>>> driving a Busch & Mueller LED headlight. The drag is minimal, despite
>>> what Tom says. The illumination is all I need.
>>>
>>> The beauty of the system is it's permanently installed and always
>>> ready. I can't imagine having separate batteries, carefully charged,
>>> to have headlights on my car or motorcycle. I don't like that idea for
>>> my bikes either.
>>>
>>> Those whose bike use is very limited (only for "training" or
>>> recreation, only while wearing the proper clothing, only on special
>>> routes, never for anything practical) would probably get very little
>>> value from a dyno system. Those who use a bike as more than a toy find
>>> dynos to be valuable.
>>>
>>
>> I drew the same conclusion but other riders (most, actually) see the
>> problem differently.
>
>Of course. And I should have modified my final sentence above. There are
>many people who use their bikes very practically, but don't use dynos.

Practically is a subjective evaluation. My subjective evaluation of
riding a bicycle to the grocery store is not practical. There are
times when we have trouble getting all the groceries in the back of
our hatchback car without dropping the back seats.